#40: Dr. Patricia McConnell - From Science to Storytelling in Her New Mystery Novel!

In this episode of the Research Bites Podcast, I’m joined by my first return guest, Patricia McConnell — Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist, beloved author, and former professor at University of Wisconsin–Madison. Many of you know her from The Other End of the Leash and For the Love of a Dog, books that shaped an entire generation of trainers.

But today, we’re talking about something new.

Her debut mystery novel, Away to Me, follows Maddie McGowan — an dog behaviorist living on a small Wisconsin farm — whose world is upended when violence strikes close to home. What unfolds is both a gripping mystery and an accurate portrayal of life as a behavior professional: working with complex clients, navigating canine aggression and trauma, and building partnerships with clients.

In our conversation, we explore:

• What fiction allows us to say about dogs that nonfiction sometimes cannot
• How to write emotional truth without overstepping scientific evidence
• Why sheepdog trials are the perfect dramatic backdrop for exploring partnership and agency
• The role of trauma, resilience, and healing — for both people and dogs
• Why agency, play, and learning to read canine body language are so important for supporting out dogs

Patricia speaks candidly about walking the line between evidence and intuition, about what dogs teach us when we truly listen, and about the power of story to expand how the public understands behavior work.

If you love a good mystery, or just a good book, especially one where the dogs are written accurately—this episode is for you.

For more information, please check out my website and social media links below!

• Website: https://sciencemattersllc.com/ 
• Unlocking Resilience: https://sciencemattersllc.com/unlocking-resilience
• Research Bites: https://sciencemattersllc.com/research-bites
• Join the Science Matters newsletter
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• ...

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Hello and welcome. I'm Dr. Kristina Spaulding, and this is the Research Bites Podcast brought to you by Science Matters Academy of Animal Behavior. We foster conversations about science and its application to animal training and behavior. In an effort to improve wellbeing for animals and the people they live with, please enjoy geeking out about the science of behavior.

Host: In this episode, I actually have my first return guest, which is Dr. Patricia McConnell. She is a fellow certified applied animal behaviorist, and she is also an author and has consulted with pet owners for over 30 years about serious behavior problems. She taught the biology and philosophy of human animal relationships in the Department of Integrative Biology at the [00:01:00] University of Wisconsin Madison for 25 years, which I took that class.

It was an awesome class, and she also co-hosted Calling All Pets with Larry Mueller on WPR for 14 years has spoken around the world about canine behavior and training. Her self-published books on behavior and training have sold over a quarter of a million copies and her nationally published books, the Other End of the Leash and for the Love of a Dog are Considered Classics and together have been translated into 15 languages.

The education of Will. A memoir focusing on healing from trauma in both people and dogs has generated heartfelt fri praise, has generated heartfelt praise and helped other trauma victims around the world. Her newest book, A Way to me, which is what we'll be talking about today, is a mystery novel that is receiving rave reviews and will be out on February 24th, 2026.

Jen, her husband, [00:02:00] live with their working border colleagues, skip and Maggie, and a very spoiled flock of sheep. For more information, you can go to patricia mcconnell.com or visit her blog at the other end of the leash.com, as well as follow her on Facebook and Instagram. And before we get into our questions, as I said, the novel is going to be released on February 24th, but you can pre-order it now on Amazon.

Bookshop for Barnes and Noble and I just wanna say I was lucky, lucky enough to get an advanced copy of the book and I think it is excellent. I do like mysteries and I have ride reading mysteries in the past that have dogs as a, a main character and I get immediately frustrated with them because there's so much in there that is, is just inaccurate as I'm sure so many of my listeners experience.

I am very happy to say and also completely [00:03:00] unsurprised that that is not an issue at all in a, to me and the dogs are very central and there's all kinds of really great information that you are able to work into this story about dogs and dog behavior. So thank you so much for joining me. I am really looking forward to talking to you today.

Guest: I'm so glad to be here. Thank you so much for having me. 

Host: So, a way to me is your first mystery novel after writing a number of really excellent books on dog training and behavior. And in those non-fiction books, precision evidence and careful language are really important. So, I'm sure that my listeners are going to be very excited to hear that your main character Maddie, is a dog behaviorist.

What about fiction? Or what did fiction allow you to explore about dogs' behavior and the relationship between humans and [00:04:00] animals that you weren't able to easily explore in nonfiction? 

Guest: That's a great question, but you know, let me start by saying that. First and foremost, a way to me is a story, a story about a woman named Maddie McGowan's, an animal behaviorist.

She sort of stays pretty within her own lane. She talks about, quote, what happened in New Mexico quote, but then doesn't really say much more about that she's got issues. But what writing fiction, first of all, first and foremost allowed me to do is to write a story. And, and that sounds sort of trivial, but I truly believe that part of what makes us human is our love of stories.

You know, we are storytellers and I love stories. I love novels. I love movies. I love television dramas. You know, just sort of a classic human who loves stories and stories can, can convey so much. I mean, they can sweep you along in the narrative, [00:05:00] which is, you know, big part of what I wanted to learn how to do.

I was, I mean, I, I should point out that, that, thank you for the kind words about my nonfiction books, but writing fiction is a whole other thing. And so my, I started out wanting to learn to write fiction, and there's so much to it. It's hard, there's learning about character development and narrative arts and, and believable dialogue.

And so that honestly was my primary focus as I was writing. And it wasn't until I was sort of, I would say maybe even half or two thirds of the way through that I really got into this story needs to be true to, to who a good animal behaviorist is. You know? Yeah. I would write, I would write scenes where Maddie would do something that would help the, the plot, right?

Because plot is everything and a mystery novel. Right? And then, and then I would reread it and I would think. Maddie would never do that. 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: I would never, you know, ENA behavior a good [00:06:00] doctor, they wouldn't have do that, or that dog would never do that. 

Host: Mm-hmm. 

Guest: So part, part of what I was doing was taking, I, I basically relied on Right.

What, you know. 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: Because so much of what I was doing was, what? I don't know, you know, I didn't know about character development and narrative arc and plot development. And I'm, I'm really happy to say I don't know a lot about murder law enforcement. This, it's a murder mystery. So I, I wanted to, to write what I know, but then as I work through it, Christina, I realized that was allowing me to say things I wanted to say About what we need to understand about dogs and, and who they are and what they need and how people can enhance their lives and make it worse. And so. that all became interwoven. But it was really later on in the process that I started really focusing on that part rather than trying to learn how to write a mystery novel.

Host: That's [00:07:00] interesting. I didn't realize that. And that makes a lot of sense. And I, I just think it's so cool that you found this vehicle for not only telling a really interesting story and not, I didn't think it was formulaic, which I also appreciate. 

Thank you. Yeah, 

thank you. But to weave in the, this message, and it's not in your face in any way, right?

You're just explaining what she's doing. But through that, to weave in a message about. Our relationship with dogs and their behavior and, and how to interact with them and what they need and, and who they are and all of that. And, and I think it's, I wouldn't have thought, I would've never thought to do that.

Right. But I think it works really well. 

Guest: Thank you. Thank you. You know, I have talked to some other people at a book event sponsored by my publisher, and we were [00:08:00] talking about how part of what is attractive about fiction to so many people is that you get involved in this story, but the story also teaches you about something you've never known before.

You know? So Yeah. One of the readers was like, I've never been to a sheet dog trial. 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: And so Maddie, Maddie McGowan's is enamel behaviorist, and she also has a sheet dog. She has, she, she has a small far and she competes at a intermediate level in cheat dog trials. And so, so one of these I love about fiction.

Is just sort of, I dunno how to say it, but so indirectly I guess you end up learning all kinds of things that you didn't know. And so, so that part of, I think what's fun about fiction to so many of us is we end up getting engrossed in the story, but yet ending up learning about, you know, anthropology or, you know, whatever.

Host: I, I agree with that. So another thing that I really liked about the book was your descriptions of the Wisconsin landscape and for our [00:09:00] listeners, I used to live in Wisconsin. I went to, college at UW Madison, university of Wisconsin, Madison, and then I went to high school in Minnesota. So two different states, but similar in a lot of ways is also very different.

But I re it was so interesting to me to read this book. I don't know if I've ever. I read a book where I felt quite so immersed in the physical locations and it was my 

heart is singing. Thank you so much. 

Yeah. And it, and it, it was just very familiar to me. And here in upstate New York there's a lot of similarities, but, but not everything.

But it was so nice to feel like I was being transported back there. And I know that you live in the country on a small farm and that experience clearly informs your writing. How intentional was it to make place, such as central part of the story, and how much of Lonely Owl Farm reflects your own lived experience and environment [00:10:00] versus a setting shaped or created specifically for the novel?

Guest: Yeah, this this was very intentional and as I said, my heart sings one and I hear you saying you feel immersed in, in the place because. For two reasons. One, as a reader, I look for that. I wanna read a story that puts me absolutely immersed in that setting. And part of what I worked on really hard is learning how to do that because it just doesn't just happen.

You know, there's a lot to learn about how to do that. And you know, one of the things I learned to do is to focus on all senses. So I talk about birds, saw a lot. 

Host: Yes, 

Guest: I talk about sense some. Although I think in my next book I'm gonna talk about it more. So, you know, I talk about what you see, but also what you hear, what you smell and touch.

And so that's part of it. So just writing a good story to me requires, at least the stories that I love anyway, requires creating a setting that literally puts the [00:11:00] leader in there. You know, you need to be there to really experience it and to get immersed in the story. So that was part of it. Other part, part is that, oh, well the same, like, because number two is write what you know.

Host: Right. 

Guest: Because I live on a small farm in southern Wisconsin. And I have work always and sheep, so write what you know. But, but I think the other really most important part is that, you know, part of this book is about I, and then I mentioned Betty has a backstory and she ends up fostering a dog from a Shelton who clearly has been traumatized.

So for I think so many people, and I think science is starting to, to bore this more and more and more specifically, is that nature, being in the woods, being in nature, being surrounded by trees and birds on mm-hmm. Is really, it's not just good for us, it's essential 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: To health for many of us. And you know, Maddie, Maddie literally escapes a sort of [00:12:00] horrible.

On this farm, and it's in part, it's the farm and the dogs that save her. And so it was really important for the arc of this story to have this place where she was finally safe and secure. This was her safe place. But then of course it's not 

Host: right, 

Guest: because it's a mystery. Yes. Right. And, you know, you don't, you don't write engaging stories about everything's great and everything's fine.

I'm not. Right. So, yeah. So, you know, shit happens and, and it takes Maddie back to a really dark place. So yeah. So it was vital to the story for so many reasons, including probably something I'm not even thinking of. But you know, I guess really the one, the one, the fourth one is that I, I, I just personally, I just love being outside.

I just, I love it. I, you know, I'm a. I'm not tree gee, you know, I am so incredibly lucky [00:13:00] that I am able to walk out my door and walk my dogs off, leave in a woods. That's my woods. Well, it's not a big property, but it's not suburb either. It's not a city where I, you know, I've lived in those places most of my life.

So it's partly just, it's a reflection of sort of really guess partly who I'm and what I really love. 

Host: Mm-hmm. 

Guest: Which meant that's what I loved writing about. 

Host: Yeah. So write what you know, but also write what you love, it sounds like. 

Guest: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: Perfect summary. Yeah, I could have just said that. 

Host: I think the extra context was, was helpful.

Yeah. One of the other things that you can do in fiction that's harder to do in nonfiction is talking about emotions. So when we talk about emotions as scientists, we're very, very careful about what we say and how we say it. But in fiction, fiction, you don't have to be as careful. So, and, and I think you've already touched on this a little bit, but what [00:14:00] story or emotional truth did you most hope that readers would take away from a away to me?

Guest: I guess, I guess most of all, you know what, if I have to answer that question, so it's a hard one. But I think I would say most of all, I want people to know that dogs are highly social sensitive emotional beings. And of course we don't know if they experienced fear the same way we do, but we know they experienced fear and we know that it's highly aversive.

Right. You know, we know now you talk about this on your. Fabulous podcasts. Talk to so many researchers who are doing so much, it's so exciting how all this work was being done. You know, burns and, you know, Harvard's kine brain project and so much work, understanding how much dissimilar in the brain of the dog and therefore in their lived experience.

So I, I, I should just say that I too, I have read [00:15:00] innumerable books that expressed the internal sta the dog, which did not feel believable to me. 

One of, one of my all-time examples is incredibly popular, absolutely massively death tellingly book, which was the Art of Racing in the Rain, in which a dog is waxing philosophically all the time.

And I read that just ripping my hair outta my head because nothing that dog said I'm, I'm doing figure coat hair. Felt believable to me. The, actually the book, I don't know if you've ever read the Chad and Bernie series by what? Nice. Quinn Spencer Quinn, I think. Oh, and he, he, he expresses a dog a lot. I forget who's Bernie and whose chat, but there's a detective, there's a detective and a dog who sort of flunked professional military training school because he kept getting distracted by a squirrel.

So this dog is always like saying things that also was like, squirrel, and, and I just howl because like, yeah, that could be a [00:16:00] dog. So what I wanted to do was, was make it clear, you know, that that dogs are highly emotional sensitive animals and that we need to take that into account. And I tried my hardest not to.

I get over my skis, you know, even though it's fiction, I didn't wanna say something that didn't ring true to me. So I talk about, for example, Maddie fosters a dog from a shelter who's basically a half dead German Shepherd who's extremely aggressive. And I talk about how Madres reads facial expressions and body postures and translate that into, I think this dog is deeply afraid.

I take this as dogs. I think his aggression is based on fear, which most of us believe. Very great amount of canine quote, aggression. Again, I put it quotes because, because it's not necessarily behavior with the intent to harm, which is the biological definition, but you know, stuff that looks scary to us, right?

Teeth and growling and [00:17:00] lunging and fighting. So, so much of that is actually driven by fear, and I think that's. Pretty strong consensus in the animal behavior community, you know, progressive, good traitors. Oh, it's, you know, no, it's not about dominance, it's about the dogs. Terrified, doesn't wanna be touched or grabbed or, so I wanted to make that really clear.

so really gratifying to me, you know, I did, I sent this book out to a lot of people, but it's always gratifying to hear back from someone with a high level of training and expertise that you have. Yes. That's believable. Yes. She didn't go over her skis and she didn't say something, you know, about of dog's, internal state.

That just seems out of, out of believable. I mean there, you know, there's a lot of drama in it and there's a point I can't tell you at the end, there's a point where the dogs make a decision that, you know, would, how many dogs would've made that decision? I dunno. I dunno. Is it possible? Yeah, actually I think it's based on experience, what we know.

So. [00:18:00] So I tried to stay within the boundaries of what we know about the eternal emotional states of dogs without just making stuff up for the, for the 

Host: Yeah. And I think, I mean, it's very clear, right, what you said about wanting to communicate the dogs are these sort of emotional, you know, in intentional creatures.

That definitely comes across in the book. And I'm curious, and I mean this is something like I have this conversation like within my own head all the time. I have it with my students and colleagues all the time. As someone that has a deep scientific training and a deep experience working with animals, how do you walk the line?

Of what we feel to be true after living and working with dogs and other species for decades as well as what we do and don't have evidence for in terms of emotions and intentionality. And where [00:19:00] do you, I'm asking you a really hard question here, but where do you personally land on that right now? 

Guest: Yeah.

Yeah. I think I think, I think what I did in the book and, and I think I did in the book what I tried to do in life, which is always be clear when I don't know or when Maddie doesn't know. So, you know, I would often say something like, you know, there there was a suggestion of, or maybe you, Maddie is speculating about how a dog is feeling or why a dog is doing what's doing.

But, so I tried to be really clear to not make definitive statements. You know, when, when I didn't know, you know, so, I mean, I don't remember specifically. Pretty sure. There were a couple of times where, where it was like, well, you know, Maddie's thinking, well, the dog could have either done that because of this or that, and I don't know, which, I don't know which, but you know, this is how I need to act on that.

Right. So there's, there's one scene actually with the dog in the shelter, which Maddie takes a tremendous risk [00:20:00] and she's just hypothesizing, right? She's just guessing, but she's using all of her experience. You know, we talk about doing something sort of on instinct or your gut feeling, you know? And so often we, we know now, I mean, I love this research, so that gut feeling actually basically years and years and years of experience, that's just not necessarily conscious, right?

Host: Yeah. Yeah. 

Guest: So, you know, we know, you know, we know there are neural cells in your gut, you know, I love that. It's gut feeling, right? Yeah. I know. We know your brain actually exists, you know, in your bowels as well as your head. I just think that's just stupid for school. 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: But So, yeah, so, you know, she, she basically had a gut feeling that this was the thing to do and it was very risky and it turned out to pay off, but she was really clear, I'm just gonna try it, I don't know, could it be a mistake? you know, and I think, don't we all try and walk that line? I mean, all of us who have dogs and also have a, a rigorous scientific [00:21:00] background, we're all always are aware during the day at some level that we're making assumptions. 

Host: Mm-hmm. 

Guest: Right. You know, we're making our best guesses.

And some of they're based on good research and some of they're based on, frankly just common sense. And some of them are based on things that are turn out to be wrong. And I think that's one of the challenges for every single one of us who loves dogs is. How quick a human is to make assumptions and uh, how quick they're to make attributions.

You know? And I mean, I dunno, anybody who is so good that they don't fall into it. Sometimes you ask your doctor to do something, you don't do it, and you have this little tiny freeze on. It's like, you're not doing it because you don't respect me or you don't love me. You know, it's like, no, you're not doing it because you don't wanna do it.

It's just that simple. Right. But I think we all fight this very human desire to make attributions that sometimes are based in reality and sometimes are just stories we get up in our head. 

Host: Yeah. And, and, and we don't know. And yet [00:22:00] we have to make decisions. Right. We can't. Right. Not make decisions just because we don't know.

And so it is a tension and it is something I think about a lot. I have this picture of Finn, my Australian Shepherd, where I. think I was reading, he was sleeping next to me on the couch and I was doing something. I'll just say I was reading and I read something and it was funny enough that I laughed out loud and I woke him up and he sat up and he gave me this look.

And I swear to God that, you know, what he was thinking was like, well you just be quiet already. Like I am trying to sleep. And it's hard not to do that. Right. And I dunno if that's what he thought. But I also have a really hard time and I don't know if I wanna like completely dismissing it because I dunno, 

Guest: I don't, I, yeah.

And I don't think we should, I think we should be honest. I think being thoughtful and questioning like as you are is, is the perfect way to be. And I just, I have two examples [00:23:00] for you. Just made me think of something that happened to me and my border colleague Skip, who's very expressive face. I'm in that clinic and we're sitting in the lobby and he is mildly nervous and I can tell by his behavior and that he's lip licking his mouth is closed.

But I would literally give, I don't know, maybe a small toe, some small digit of my body if it was taken under painkillers. Literally got a picture of his face with this huge, huge golden lab Crossy thing. Had to weigh 9,000 pounds, comes in the door, barking his head off, and skip turns his, and whips his head around to me around.

And if, and I have never seen an expression on a dark's face like that. And if it wasn't WTF, there is no other explanation. I mean, he literally, he, it was hysterical. I literally burst out laughing. He was so shocked, and so, and so, so, but I have an [00:24:00] example from the novel where I'm going, I'm going over my skis a little bit, but here, here's a question that I never heard anybody talk about, I've never seen any research on, but I think every dog, almost every doggle in earth can relate to that we never talk about.

So there is a scene in a way, to me, in which Maddie has a romantic encounter with some, and there's a line. And honestly it might be one of my favorite lines from the book, there is a line that goes something like I'm, I'm, I'm not looking at it, so, so I'm paraphrasing. this is a romantic encounter, right?

And so Maddie says, and then we did it right there in the grass, and Jack went back to the house in four and. Who of us has not had a dog who was there when we were having sex, who reacted in some way or not. And I can tell you, I've had dogs who reacted [00:25:00] completely differently. One of my dogs left the room every time another dog wanted to be in the, you know, like, could I play?

Host: Yep. Yep. 

Guest: The hell is wrong. I mean, I have no idea what they're thinking, but it's something we never talk about. And I feel pretty confident that even though I'm guessing that there are some dogs who are horrified by what happens when people are making love, but I would, I would still bet some serious money on it.

Dogs are sometimes shocked and uncomfortable. 

Host: They certainly have a strong reaction to it, you know, and periodically clients would bring this up. I think it would typically have to be pretty bad. Yes. Because I, I'm pretty confident it happens far more than what people would actually come to me about. But yeah, I mean it's, there's, it's loud and it energetic and they don't, I mean, I don't think they know what's happening.

It's 

Guest: so confusing. It's like, 

Host: like, 

Guest: alright, is somebody being hurt? 

Host: Right. 

Guest: I mean, [00:26:00] children can get very upset. 

Host: Yes. 

Guest: Right. Yeah. And distress. 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: Because they don't, because, you know, it's very dramatic often, as you say. 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: Very noisy. Sometimes. I too have had a few clients. I had one client whose dog got really aggressive, but when they put the dog out of the room that it would at the door.

Host: Mm. 

Guest: You know, and I had one client, I've never had Don, but I had one that it's a client's dog who wanted to jump and, and play. 

Host: Right. 

Guest: And it was, and yeah. I also, I'll tell you, one of my dogs an intact male border Chloe. When I, when I was dating, somebody would supposed to be sitting across the room and me, and this man is sitting on the couch.

And if was, how did this work? So if I wasn't looking at my dog, my dog would start this really direct intense stare at the gentleman, and as soon as I would start turning my head towards him, he would turn his head to the side. I'm not looking at [00:27:00] any, I'm not, I'm not looking at anything. And then as soon as I started to turn my head, he'd whip his head back and look at the skylight, you know, pray.

So there was, you know, it was very interesting interaction. Anyway, something, it's really fun. I've never talked about this ever. 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: Nobody ever does. But you know what, it's reality. And there we are. 

Host: Yeah. It's 

Guest: part of living with dogs. 

Host: Exactly. So yeah, it, I'm, I'm sure many people have stories, many stories like that, so.

Guest: Well, there's a podcast right there. 

Host: Yeah.

I think it's very clear by now that dogs play a very important part in the plot of a way, to me, whatcha hoping readers will learn about dogs and dog behavior while reading the book? 

Guest: Yeah. We, it's, it's a big topic. You know, we have talked about it a little bit, but you know, besides what I said earlier about understanding that dogs are highly social sensitive and emotional, I've used part of what I would love, and I didn't write it with [00:28:00] this intention at all.

I just, I, you know, I wanted to write a great story that was sort of true and engaging and dramatic, you know, and kept people's attention and kept, kept them turning pages. But I think, I think part of, you know, in sort of personal hindsight is I would like to learn, I would like people to learn something about how to deal with, you know, with some canine behavioral problems, for example.

Mm-hmm. You know, this foster dog, this, this shepherd, nobody could get anywhere near in the shelter. Well, Maddie does what a lot of behaviors would do, you know, rather than forcing herself on this dog who desperately needs to eat. The dog is starving, won't eat, won't drink. She just sits down, she sits down, she spits out, she's sitting in the shelter beside the dog's table.

She sits there. That's all she does. And there's so much of what Maddie does, you know, there, there a lot of, some of the stories are about some of her clients. So they're, you know, she sees clients, she sees client's, dogs, and really, you know, I wrote them to sort of just [00:29:00] create the setting. Right. You know, this is for life.

This is what she does. But also in there it's like, well, you know. What is happening? What does she learn about this dog? You know, what does this dog need? I mean, there's a, I should mention my way. All the clients in the novel are very carefully evolved examples of clients I've actually seen. 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: So, you know, there's, there's one dog who is extremely aggressive to other dogs and leafs overate, completely inadequate fence and attacks little dogs, you know, being walked, being on the leash.

You know, and, and I think there's just a lot to learn to people who don't do this for a living about how that is handled, you know? 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: And I, you know, I didn't want it to be boring. I want it to be really interesting. And the characters, you know, the owners of this dogs Yeah. Were like great characters.

Exactly. The, exactly. People that I worked with seriously did not make that part up. Called them, Larry Daryl on the other Brother Darrell, you know, for great pop new heart show. But [00:30:00] you know. So readers learn about like, well, what do you do about this dog? Well, the first thing you do is management. You know, which is so often what we all do, okay?

There's a problem, there's danger. Dogs can be taken away from it. They gonna hurt somebody's dog like really badly, and you are in danger. So what do we do first? Number one, we do management. You know, so there's management, and then there's like, okay, now we need to start teaching your dog a different response to a little dog walking by.

So, you know, so you sort of see that, but yet it's sort of part of Maddie's life. But hopefully by reading that scene, it's amusing because Larry Darrell and Darrell are sort of great characters who just, I totally fell in love with both, both in reality and in the novel. Who by the way, will continue on throughout the rest of the series.

So hopefully, you know, that way of sort of creating. The setting for Maddie's life. When you write a murder mystery, you can't have high level tension at every single second. Right. You know, life sort of has to go on. Right? 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: So part of [00:31:00] pausing between, you know, this death and you know, that murder and, you know, this drama is examples of Maddie's life that hopefully will be instructive, but interesting, but also instructive to people who aren't in our world, you know, and as trainers or animal behaviorists.

Speaker: If you enjoy these conversations and want to stay connected between episodes, I'd love to invite you to join my mailing list. That's where I share reflections on current research, updates on coming classes. My thoughts about working at the intersection of science, uncertainty, and real world practice. No hype.

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Guest: I'm curious, I mean, you, you know, you have a ton of, a lot of experience in clients. Did they ring and, and be honest. I mean, there was one, it was [00:32:00] like, you know, they all rang true, except there was this one. I mean, how did, as a professional, how, you know, when you were reading about a client's stories, how did they hit you?

Host: Yeah, I mean, I think accurate and, you know, obviously. Different for me. But like, it, it's funny because as you were talking about the three brothers, I, I had, the dog was very different, but I had a case with three sisters, adult, like probably in their eighties, you know, that lived together. And the dynamic there.

And that was a very interesting case because one took the dogs to cla. There are two dogs, took the dogs to class and it was really not going well. And she was getting extremely frustrated with the dogs and very, very upset. And it was upsetting other people in class. And so we, I suggest we do private training and it was a totally different world.

You know, the way she was with her dogs at home was much, much more positive and patient. And I think it was just the [00:33:00] public eye, you know, like being, yeah, 

Guest: yeah, 

Host: yeah. 

Guest: Right, right. Yeah. 

Host: And it was just very, it was a very lovely, you know, what could have been a very negative experience ended up being, 

Guest: became really lovely.

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: You know, we get so, I mean, I'm guessing that an awful lot of canine professionals are the people who listen to your beautiful, fascinating podcast. Podcast. We just get so fond of so many of our clients, don't we? Yes. I mean, they become, there's just so many wonderful people out there who are trying so hard that don't know what to do.

You know, I've had, I've had students come up to me and, and say, you know, I wanna do what you do. I love, you know, I wanna be enamel behaviorist. And then, and then they start saying like, yeah. I don't really, I love dogs. I love dogs so much, and I, I don't, I don't, I actually love dogs, boys than people. And then I don't actually like people at all.

Host: Right. 

Guest: And I'm like, whoa, whoa, stop. Because that is who you're gonna be working with. 90% of your time is gonna be working [00:34:00] with people. And if you don't like that, don't do what I do, because I, I just, people fascinate me. I mean, dogs and people are my two favorite species. 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: Some birds and some horse, you know, horse, you know, they're some pretty anyway, but, so yeah.

The people are fascinating and I think, you know, that's part of, you know, the, the great book and the now TV series, all Creatures great and small. 

Host: Mm-hmm. 

Guest: I actually, you know, years ago, before I started, this was a murder mystery. I told my agent, I wanna write the American version of all features, but of be an animal behaviorist and a woman, Yeah. Not a male in the UK who's, in fact a woman is an animal behaviorist. Who is it? And my agent was like, oh, I don't think that would sell. And I didn't even realize until recently, recently that well actually sort of did that. You know, I sort of did that. I just sort of added a murder mystery into it, you know?

Host: Right. Yeah. I mean, I think it would sell, but I'm not necessarily the most representative [00:35:00] consumer, but I've, I've thought about that too, of that would be such a cool thing. I think it would be so beneficial. I mean, I don't know, man. I feel like it would sell because the, we're getting a little bit off track here, but yeah.

the sense of isolation and grief that so many people feel when they're living with an animal that has serious behavior issues. Yeah, yeah. There's a book that we could send them to to say, look like, read this. You're not alone. I feel like that would really 

Guest: resonate. I think, you know, I think I actually told my agent recently that what she had said to me years ago and she said, I said that.

Really? But I think, you know, but, but I think in a way I'm really happy it ended up the way it did because how many people love murder mysteries? 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: And so people who I think that, yeah, there are a lot, you know, it's a very doggy, you know, there's a lot of dogs in this book, but you don't have to be a dog lover to get into the mystery.

And so I think, [00:36:00] so I feel really good about the fact that I think this book is gonna be a way to broaden. People's understanding of what animal behaviors and great trainers do, right? Yeah. Yeah. And what the possibilities are and how so many people are like them are struggling because, you know, they wanna love their dog, but it's driving them crazy, you know, and they don't know what to do.

So hopefully that that feeling, inspiration and community will be there, will still be there. 

Host: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that's something, I mean, I feel like people could see themselves in the characters. Good. Yeah. Yeah. 

Good, 

good. Yeah. And, and kind along those lines, you know, Maddie has, she has a pretty limited human social circle, although it's very strong, and the animals clearly play a central role in her, a central emotional role in her life.

And we talk a lot about how [00:37:00] dogs. Support our wellbeing as in humans, but much less about what that emotional role means for the dogs themselves. So as you were writing this book and talking about Maddie's relationship with her dogs, how did you think about that balance in terms of what she asks of her dogs emotionally, and then what she gives back to them?

Guest: I, you know, I'm thinking back, it's like, well, you know, what was my intention when I was writing it? And I think, I think you're giving me too much credit because I honestly, I do. I really do. I mean, I was working so hard to write a good mystery novel and to write fiction, which, as I said earlier off, I was trying so hard to write a good novel, you know, to write good fiction.

Mm-hmm. And it really, really is hard so much in my concentration with have a believable dialogue. What should happen next? Is that chapter too much? Should I just kill that chapter? Should I combine those [00:38:00] chapters? What would maddi say? What's dri, what's driving the reader to, to, to turn the page? You know, it wasn't, it wasn't intentional, but I hope it's really clear how much Maddie loves dogs, you know, and how she does indeed, as you say, she relies on them, but she also believes that they're relying on her, that it's her job to be their advocate.

It's her job to help translate them to their owners. It's, it's her calling, it's her job to treat them with kindness and respect and compassion and, and an understanding as best she can, you know, of what they're feeling or needing. Oh, it's, I love that you asked that question. And it's interesting just to me personally, just like I never remember thinking intentionally about any of it, but you know, I, I mean, you know, I've certainly read the book 8,000 million times and I know it's there.

And it felt really [00:39:00] important to me that there was a character that the protagonist was somebody who deeply loved dogs, who respected them for being dogs. Not little furry people. 

Host: Mm-hmm. 

Guest: But who respected them and, and was, I mean, it, Maddie risked her life to try and save the dog. I mean, that's what happens.

That's the primary mystery is that Maddie goes home one day to discover she has multiple dogs and discovers that one of her beloved dogs is gone. Gone. Just. Gone missing, like our worst nightmare. Right. and, and I'm, I'm gonna interject right now against the advice of my publisher who can't believe I'm doing this.

No dogs die in the making or the reading of this novel. I have to say that my publisher, my editor, it's like, you can, it's like, yes, I can. 

Host: Because people won't read it. If, if they maybe 

Guest: would, I would read it. Yeah. I wouldn't read it. No. No. I wouldn't read it. And that by the way, is a fascinating conversation [00:40:00] to have at another time, maybe with another person you interview, maybe a psychologist.

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: I wrote about murder of humans. 

Host: Right. 

Guest: And that, so, you know, and people will read that, but not about, I have a lot of theories about why that's true. I'm fascinated by it, but I'll just leave it there. You know, it's just, it's so important to me that, that people see Maddie and that they understand that Maddie is like, I cannot live with myself.

I cannot live myself if I don't find this dog. And everybody is like, give it up, give it up. You know? And, and she doesn't, and she indeed is her life in order to say this dog book is a hero's journey. I mean, you know, the classic narrative arc of most fiction is a hero's journey, and that's exactly what Maddie is on.

Ma Maddie manages to overcome, you know, her ugly past all of the forces sort of working against her, all of her fears in order to [00:41:00] be who she wants to be. 

Host: Yeah. Yeah. That's really powerful. And, and you do have, you know, you, you make some references to trauma and, and you see that playing a central role as well.

We, we could have a long conversation about that, but we, we won't because 

so many. 

Yes, exactly. But that, that's something that I, I really appreciated about the book as well. Maddie's hobby is sheep dog trialing, and one of the things that that does is tests a dog and handler under time pressure, or just pressure in general.

I know that you've completed in trials yourself, so I have a couple of questions. So, why did you choose sheep Dog trials as an important part of the plot? And also, uh, what do you think that working dogs and especially sheep dogs can teach us about learning, intentionality, choice and partnership more broadly?

Super simple question, right? 

Guest: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing, nothing there. Nothing there to talk about. Yeah, I don't, yeah, my answer is like, I don't [00:42:00] know. No, there's another big reason is that she, drug trials are inherently very dramatic. You know, they're, they're very dramatic. You're looking at three species.

And, and they're also all about communication, which is what all my, you know, that's my PhD research was based on communication between, you know, interspecific, communication between members of two different species. So you have hammers communicating with the dogs, the dogs communicating with sheep. She communicating to the both of them back.

And so it's a fascinating cauldron of interspecific communication. And, and again, they're very dramatic. I mean, it is, if you, if you've never been to a sheep dog trial, there are times where the, the audience literally holds their breath. There literally is like a pin can drop because all of a sudden right in front of you, there's a 35 pound dog with its face, 12 inches away from the, from the docked head [00:43:00] of 130 pound animal with a head like an anvil.

Mm-hmm. 

Host: Right. 

Guest: What's gonna happen, you know, and ideally the she drunk trial west has to happen is that the dog has nerve and power and confidence and basically stares down at you and then you goes, you know, I think I'm gonna just back away from here, but it's also could happen when you attacks the dog, he can also have a dog panics and bites at the sheep, which is a disqualification, right.

As it should be. Because, you know, really should all be about taking really good care of sheep. So they're very dramatic. And also, you know, just, you know how happenstance just, just sort of plays into our life so much our lives. I was at a sheet dunk trial, really well known one in southeastern Wisconsin.

That's a beautiful course. It's gorgeous. Course not far away from it. Is again, so it's far away as in the country, right? So this is not a suburb. So, but within hearing distance, there's a place that [00:44:00] has some kind of target training. 

Host: Mm. 

Guest: So you're actually running your dog while shots are coming through the woods, right?

Yeah. And so I'm sitting at, in the audience and, and I literally just had the seat in my head of, well, what if one of those shots came out of the woods and was directed towards the handler standing at the post? 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: So that's actually, I mean, I'm, it's the first chapter and it's, it's, you know, it's right in the description.

I'm not giving anything away. The first chapter is where Manny only has two good friends. One of them is shot and killed by a shot that comes out in the woods while running a dog, who she could. That's the first chapter. That's how it all starts. And so, so trial. So again, they're familiar, really traumatic.

It's a fascinating sport that I take a lot of people love. I mean, look at the, the, the BBC had a a TD series called One Man and a Dog. It was a smash hit. People love it. It's really, really [00:45:00] interesting. So for all of those reasons, it was like, yeah, that would be, you know, that's, that's a great hobby for manning to have and a great sort of setting for lots of things to happen.

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: So let me get to that second question, which I love. And I'm, I'm gonna stay on that last part you asked about, asked about learning, intentionality, and choice. I wanna focus on partnership. Yeah. Because, because one of the things I absolutely adore about working as sheep. The thing I love the most is it is a true partnership.

It is, you know, I have seen people think and behave as though working a sheet dog is sort of mindlessly sending it over to that area and then telling to stop and sending it over to the left or to the right and telling them to stop. It's not, that's the trivial part. The important part, all the first training of the dog is to teach it balance.

Nobody says lie down. Nobody says Stop. Good trainers. They don't say anything. They're basically moving their [00:46:00] body around. Such the dog learns how to keep the sheep moving towards the handler, and the sheep tell the dog what works. Dog borderlines inherently want to control the sheep, and so they can read sheep better because of instinct love, because of instinct, good breathing, partly because of the training.

There are very few people I know two of them, there are very few people in North America who can read sheep as well as a dog. Mm-hmm. So you are in a true partnership. You are relying on your dog. So many examples, I mean, a quick example is one of the parts that sheep dog trial, and it happens at home a lot.

I mean, I need to get my sheep into the barn for some kind of treatment. They don't wanna go, they don't wanna go into a barn. What's in it, you know, for them there besides being trapped, right? 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: So there's a standing pen and sheep dog trial, and the handler and the dog have to get the sheep in the bed and they don't, they don't wanna go.

And it's a great exercise that shows a dog ability to be a good working farm dog. By that [00:47:00] means, I love that aspect of violence so much. You have to rely on your dog to understand she what they wanna do, what they're about to do, and what the dog needs to do, how much pressure to put on. So, for example, a good handler might say.

Lie down to a dog with a sheep are approaching the pen and if it's the right hand or the right training, the right dog, the dog will be like, no, I'm not gonna do that. That would be a mistake. So if I lie down and take the pressure off, they're gonna take advantage of that. So I'm gonna stop, but I'm gonna stop standing because that's what I need to do with the sheet because I'm the dog.

I could read them better. So it's this wonderful real partnership where the abilities of the dog far beyond ours and the knowledge and ability of a human work together as real true part. It's like centering, you know, it's like scent work. That's the other thing that I just love with dogs because they're doing things we can't do and you're, it's a true partnership between a person and a dog.

And what is, you know. So it's just, [00:48:00] it's another layer to this incredible biological phenomenon that we have of this relationship with dogs that we have. That really is, to me, is a miraculous phenomenon. You know, they are friends, they are family, they're best friends, and they could also become this really tight working partnership where you and a dog gets something really difficult done.

And I'll tell you, you can walk off a course and now I'm way over my skis. But, but, but the feeling that you have and every other I know has this feeling. You walk off a course having done something really hard, and you and your dog made really good choices and it was really hard. And you are feeling like, damn, damn.

You know, and you looked at your dog and your dog is walking like, damn, I nailed it, you know? 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: And again, I'm over my skis there, but I will tell you, I don't know a handler who wouldn't like be their own farm, but that's true. 

Host: Yeah. Which is a really amazing opportunity for them to be able to have that experience.

Guest: Yes. And I [00:49:00] think so important for dogs. I mean, you know, now, you know, dogs who aren't working chic dogs or aren't, you know, involved in, you know, even set detection games. I mean, I, I think it's such an important reminder that all of our dogs need agency. They need autonomy, they need to be dogs, they need to be able to make choices, they need to be able to solve problems.

And I think we're just starting to realize that a lot of our domestic dogs are living in a world where they get great food and great healthcare. They're loved, right? You get petting all night on the couch, but they don't get enough agency. They don't get enough feelings of, I'm a dog and I did something doggy.

Mm-hmm. That good and important. And I think the more we can give them that no matter who we are. The better, the better we are, the better, the better species we are ourselves. 

Host: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely agree. Well, I would love to continue to talk to you, but we do have to wrap this up however, I do have a couple more wrap up questions.

So the first one is, are we going to see more of [00:50:00] McGowan? 

Guest: Oh, I hope so. The, the dream, the hope is, is a three book series. So the first one is away to me, which by the way means go counterclockwise around the sheet to a dog. Second one's come by, which means go clockwise. And the third one is that'll do, which means your work is done.

Now I'm 77, I have some medical inventions. 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: I am unable to work much on come by right now, although I'm just dying to, because you know, an author's job at this point in their life is to help promote their book because that's sort the way the world is down. So I've, I mean I've got about four chapters written of Kabai.

I have a flock figured out, so yeah. So come by, come hill or high water, we'll come out there and I really, really, really hope that that there'll be a third book in the series again with Maddie and her board of colleague Jack. Yeah. So that's the whole, 

Host: yeah, I would love to read more and I love that.

Thank you. You know, the poetry of the three book titles and ending. That'll do. And that's [00:51:00] perfect. Okay. So why don't we wrap up with what can listeners do right now to improve the wellbeing of their dogs? 

Guest: Well, you know, that's a great transition 'cause we just talked about number one, and my opinion was, is to give your dog choice.

Give your dog ecstasy. You know, learn how to learn how to do husbandry with your dog, learn how to handle your dog where you're not trapping them and sort of forcing them in things. You know, understand that when you take your dog on a walk, you should be taking your dog on a sniff. You know, don't, don't walk like a primate.

I see so many people, their dog wants to stop and sniff and they wanna keep walking. It's like, no, let your dog sniff. That's why he's out there. You know? So there's that. So I, I mean, I think that is so important. But the other, the other one thing I would say every behaviorist and, and good trainer I know has said the same thing.

Tell me if you disagree, but learning to read visual signals on a dog feels so important. And it's, we just, we haven't done a good enough job getting dog lovers in the general [00:52:00] public to know. It's not hard, it's not rocket science, but we just, you know, if I, I was doing dog training classes again, you know, family dog training classes.

Again, I swear to you. A third or a half of it would not be on sit and not be unleash. It would be on reading your dogs. It's critical to me because I think so many bites would be avoided. You know, those are, you know, both Christina and I know as behaviorists, those are horrible, traumatic gut disasters that can happen to families.

It's heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. And then who knew right when we went in this field that you would go home and cry? Right? Right. Because, you know, the, the 235 pound brave firefighter in your office was sobbing for 45 minutes. Right? Because his dog has been an ate or something. So learning to read digital singers of dogs and understand postures, understand better what dogs are trying to communicate to us is absolutely, you know, job [00:53:00] number.

Probably job number one, and I would then say, agency and autonomy is number two. But I'm curious if you feel the same way, Christina. 

Host: Yeah, I, I do. And I, and I actually think it's all connected because learning to read body language allows us to give them more agency because we're better at figuring out what they want and what they need.

So, and what 

Guest: they may be about to do. 

Host: Yes. Yes, exactly. 

Guest: Yes. Yeah. 

Host: And then I, I also think that exploration, which that's what, you know, agency and autonomy allow for independent exploration. And I think that's very important. Yes. I mean, you look at it on the surface and it doesn't seem like it's that big of a deal, but really what they're learning is how to interact with their world and how to deal with uncertainty and respond appropriately and regulate their emotions and their attention.

Right. We take that away so much of the time, and I mean, this is just my opinion, [00:54:00] but I really think that's contributing to behavior issues particularly. I mean, I think it contributes to all of them, but most obviously, I think it contributes to barking and lunging on leash. 

Guest: Yes, yes. I totally agree. So restricted.

Yeah. You know, so confined, so with no options. And the other, you know, the other thing that, that you sort of made me think of indirectly is learning how to play with dogs in a way that is really fun for dogs. And that can include, I mean, I, I include teaching dogs, lot of tricks. It's kind of play. Yeah. The thing about teaching dog tricks that I love is that people don't get their.

Their ego's involved. I mean, it's so easy. Like you teach a dog to lie down and they don't lie down. And you get, like I said, lie down and so lie down, you know, all these attribution, like you teach em a trick, they don't do it. It's like, eh, you know, they did yesterday. But let your dogs learn [00:55:00] things and then be playful and be silly.

Yeah. And having you laugh together, you know, and learning how to play appropriately with dogs doesn't set them up to get into trouble or increase their arousal and their frustration. So I think that's, I think that's really high on my list. You know, Karen Lindon, our colleague Karen London. Mm-hmm. She's, she, you know, she, she's a queen of play in, in the world of canines as far as I'm concerned.

You know, she's written a talk so eloquently about how important play is in dogs and I couldn't agree more. 

Host: Well, and now we have research. I mean, I would say there's pretty convincing research in rodents that, pretty important for building resilience and social skills, isn't 

Guest: that? Yeah. And we know it's true in humans, right?

There's tons of research on that, I think, right? So why wouldn't it be true in dogs? 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: And I think, you know, you bring up resilience, which is something I think we're all talking and thinking about a lot and learning more about, which is great. But I think you're absolutely right that one of the ways to build [00:56:00] resilience and, you know, and that's true of, you know, getting back to away to me and, and traumatize Maddie, you know, that's an important part of healing from all kinds of things, you know, including trauma.

So, 

Host: yeah. 

Guest: Yeah. So those are all really important things, and they're all really doable. I mean, that's what's great about it to me. You don't have to get a PhD. You don't have to spend hours and hours and hours studying. You could, you know, you could spend a couple of weeks. Watching some videos and learning a couple of things and your whole life can change.

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: Right. With your dog. 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: Right. It's just, it's not, like I said, it's not rocket science, it just needs to be attended to. 

Host: Yeah. You know, I mean, and I, I'm sure you've come across similar people to me is like they don't have any formal training and the way that they can read dogs is just incredible.

And then they have this amazing relationship because they can read them, so. 

Guest: Right. 

Host: Yeah. 

Guest: Some people are just brilliant at it. 

Host: Yeah. All right, [00:57:00] so if you guys would like to learn more or get away to me, which I would highly recommend, remember that it is available for pre-order now on Amazon Bookshop and Barnes and Noble, and it comes out on February 24th, and you can go to Patricia McConnell's website, which is.

Patricia mcconnell.com with two Cs, two Ns and two Ls, and get a list of book related events. And maybe you'll be lucky enough to be able to attend one in person. So thank you for coming on the podcast again, and thank you for writing this book and for everything you've done for the field. 

Guest: Thank you too.

You're, you're doing, you're doing such great work. It is so gratifying for me to see people like you just taking the ball and just running and just beautifully with it. So thank you for all the work you're doing. 

Host: Thank you. 

Guest: It's a wonderful addition to our world. 

Host: Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Research Bytes [00:58:00] podcast. If you enjoyed this content and would like to learn more, please visit www.sciencemattersllc.com. For more information, you can also find the link in the podcast description. The website has information on upcoming events, as well as my monthly research, webinars, and upcoming courses.

I hope to see you there. Thank you.